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WHO  ARE  SO  CALLED BOSNIAN SERBS AND BOSNIAN CROATS

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WHO ARE SO CALLED BOSNIAN SERBS AND BOSNIAN CROATS


The people of Bosnia are traditionally called Bosnians.
For reasons having to do with recent history (and as much with 20th-century ideologies as with traditional religious allegiances), Bosnians whose ancestors were of the Catholic faith are now identified as Bosnian Croats (17%), while those of Eastern Orthodox background are now identified as Bosnian Serbs (31%). The largest group of the Bosnian population, however, are the Muslim Slavs (44% in the 1991 census), descendants of Christian Bosnians who accepted Islam some 500 years ago.



A quote from a book "Putnams Home Cyclopedia" p116 written in 1851

As we can clearly see the orthodox population at the time this book was written considered themselves to be Bosniaks, not Serbs, Serbian propaganda machinery was not as effective back than.



A New and Comprehensive Gazetteer By George Newenham Wright p.94



"Bosnians are almost independent", unlike Servians (in mid 19 century Serbs were called Servians and their country was named Servia, it`s not hard to guess what those names mean now is it) who took great pride in serving their new masters the Ottoman Turks.



Europe past and present geography manual 1850 p 633

Greek Christians=Bosniaks , no Serbs in sight, but Garasanin and his propagandists were about to change that later on.



The Edinburgh GazetteerOr Geographical Dictionary p 564 written in 1822

"The inhabitants (Bosniacks) are of Sclavonian origin and use the purest dialect of the Sclavonian language", don`t tell this to Servs and Croasians. LOOL

History of the Greek revolution byThomas Gordon p.19

Bosniaks of three faiths.
 
 
 
 
McCullohs universal Gazetteer
 




The Penny Cyclopaedia of the Society for the Difussion of Useful Knowledge written in 1836























Newer books:

[image]

The Muslims of Bosnia-Herzegovina by Mark Pinson, Roy P. Mottahedeh page 8

John B.Alckock-Explaining Yugoslavia pages 318-319

http://i407.photobucket.com/albums/pp159/petrich/318-319identities.jpg

Croat like Serb is a construction which only acquires anything like its present form in the late 19 century 

Balkan at the crossroads p.2 Click me

The Ottoman succeeded in winning the loyalti of Bosnian peasant uprising against Hungary. Bosnia was subsequently annexed to the Ottoman empire, and most of the bogomils converted to Islam, those Bosnians who remained Catholic became ethnic Croats, those who remained Orthodox identified as Serbs.  

Bosnia and Herzegovina: a tradition betrayed by John V.A Fine and Robert J. Donia Click me

A Bosnian`s identity as a  Bosnian goes back many centuries whereas the classification of any Christian Bosnian as a  Serb or a Croats  goes back barely a century.

P 14-15

A quote from Noel Malcolm`s book Bosnia: a short history p.10

As for the question of whether the inhabitants of Bosnia were really Croat or really Serb in 1180, it cannot be answered, for two reasons: first, because we lack evidence, and secondly, because the question lacks meaning. We can say that the majority of the Bosnian territory (in 1180) was probably occupied by Croats - or at least, by Slavs under Croat rule - in the seventh century; but that is a tribal label which has little or no meaning five centuries later. The Bosnians were generally closer to the Croats in their religious and political history; but to apply the modern notion of Croat identity (something constructed in recent centuries out of religion, history, and language) to anyone in this period would be an anachronism. All that one can sensibly say about the ethnic identity of the Bosnians is this: they were the Slavs who lived in Bosnia.

But tell that to the Asiatic barbarians.

Bosnia a cultural history written by a Croat historian Ivan Lovrenovic p 93 Bravo Ivan

People called themselves Bosnjani in national term.

Lovrenovic argues that the term ‘Bosnian Croat’ dates only from the 19th century, and thus belongs among the phenomena of the modern era in Bosnia, above all the destruction of the Ottoman Empire and the great changes that it wrought in the region. While agreeing with Bosnian historian Srecko Džaja’s thesis that Bosnia’s Catholics had for centuries felt a kinship to the Catholics of Western Europe, he believes that ‘Croatization’ is a modern phenomenon, inseparable from the 19th-century ideology of bringing all Croats into one state, from political events following Austria’s annexation of Bosnia, and from the concept of ‘Catholic Croatian national sentiment’ introduced by the church hierarchy. “Before the modern political use of “Croat” as the name of a nation near the end of the 19th century,’ Lovrenovic writes, ‘… Bosnian Catholics with great pride considered Bosnia alone as their country and homeland…’ Nearly 150 years of forgetting their Bosnian [pre-Catholic] roots produced the ‘self-ignorance’ of today’s Bosnian Croats…

H.P Liotta dismemberng a state  Click me

Yugoslavia as history by John R. Lampe p 23 Click me

More significantly, to the considerable degree that religious identity determined ethnic identity in the 15 and 16 centuries,the extent of the conversions calls into question the consciously Croat or Serb identity of much of the Bosnian population. 

Viktor Meier-Yugoslavia a history of its demise 200-201 Hit me

The History of the Balkan Peninsula: From the Earliest Times to the Present (Eastern Europe Collection) by Ferdinand Schevill 202-203 Link

The history of Bosnia From the middle ages to the present day Link 1  Link 2

Tom Clancy: Bosnia a travel guide p19 click me baby one more time

Noel Malcolm: Bosnia-a short history p10-11 You know the drill 

"It occurs in the politico-geographical handbook written in 958 by the Byzantine Emperor Constantine Porphyrogenetus.In the section of his handbook devoted to the Serbian prince`s lands he wrote:'IN BAPTISED SERBIA ARE THE INHABITED CITIES OF DESTIKON [etc.]....AND IN THE TERRITORY OF BOSONA,KATERA AND DESNIK"
This makes it clear that Bosnia was considered a seperate territory. page 10

 

John V.A Fine: When ethnicity did not matter in the Balkans p.24-25  

 Large parts of what was to become Yugoslavia remained outside the rule of these two dominant tribes,presumably simply under units of the original Slaveni.These areas included Bosnia and Duklja(Montenegro).   LINK

 

THE BOSNIAN CHARTERS AND CERTAIN MISCONCEPTIONS ABOUT THEM 

 

Stephen Kotromanić (died 1353), sometimes referred to as Stephen II, was a Ban (ruler) of Bosnia.

Stephen’s father, Kotroman, was the ruler of a territory in northern Bosnia. Stephen succeeded his father as ruler of the territory.

Stephen entered into a power struggle with the Šubić family, who appeared to have ruled the Banate of Bosnia for the first two decades of the 14th century. By 1322, Stephen had become Ban. He expanded his territory into parts of Dalmatia, including the coast between Split and Ragusa (modern Dubrovnik) and most of Hum (Herzegovina), uniting most of Bosnia and Herzegovina into a single political entity for the first time.

Stephen appears to have been a member of Bosnian Church, but also is thought to have been a Serbian Orthodox and by some even a Roman Catholic.

In 1284 he got married to Elisabeth Nemanjić, the daughter of Stefan Dragutin, king of Serbia.

Stephen was buried in the Franciscan Monastery of Visoko. Upon his death his nephew, Tvrtko Kotromanic, became Ban, and later King, of Bosnia.

 

Stephen’s documents

Excerpt of charter of Ban Stefan II to Dubrovnik from 1333:

да имамо и дрьжимо до конца свиета непомачно. и за то
ставлю я (господинь) бань Стефань свою златѹ печать, да
ѥ веровано, сваки да знаѥеть и види истинѹ. а томѹи сѹ .д̄.
повелле..а.. двие латинсци а дви срьпсцие, а све сѹ печа-
тене златиеми печати: двие ста повелле ѹ господина бана
Стефана а двие повелле ѹ Дѹбровници. а то ѥ писано подь

to have and hold to the end of the world moveless. And for that
have put I (lord) ban Stefan my golden seal, to
be believed, everyone to know and see the truth. And to that are IV
charters..a.. two Latin and two Serbian, and all are sea-
led with golden seals: two are charters in lord ban
Stefan and two charters in Dubrovnik. And that is written under

Of 60 words in the excerpt:

  • 29 (48.3%) are completely the same in contemporary Serbian — or, for that matter Croatian or Bosnian
  • 15 (25%) differ only in slightly changed sound of a letter (usually through iotation, or loss or it, or by transfer of “ou” to “u”)
  • 8 (13.3%) differ in one phoneme
  • 8 (13.3%) differ more but are fully recognisable.

 

MI
1333.GIF

Charter of Stefan Kotromanic 1333

Regarding the quoted document, one must observe:

  • the document is one among a few hundreds of charters of Bosnian rulers. In a few of them Serbian name is mentioned for the script, and particularly so for the charters issued by Tvrtko Kotromanić who employed scriveners from conquered areas of Serbia-hence the name, and peculiarities of these few charters that set them aside from the majority of the other texts (legal documents, sacral texts of Bosnian Church and stone inscriptions). In other texts the name of the language is almost never mentioned, except a few documents that call the language in Bosnia “Croatian” (the letter of Stjepan Kotromanić to the pope in 1347.), and the majority of legal texts refer to the language as “Slavic” or “Dalmatian” (in rare occasions when this reference occurs at all)
  • it is ahistorical to try to create a picture of ethnic composition in medieval Bosnian polity by selectively referencing modern national or ethnic name that pops up now and then in various documents or historical works that describe periods in Bosnian history. One can tally ethnic traits of medieval Bosnian rulers and find either Croat or Serb characteristics in the list. However, such simplistic approach is dated and discarded: there is no sign that population of pre-Ottoman Bosnia and Herzegovina, whichever social stratum, had developed Croatian or Serbian ethnic consciousness even in a medieval sense of the word.


References

  • Franz Miklosich, Monumenta Serbica, Vienna 1858, p. 105-109; obtained from slike/1333.GIF at [1] (http://members.tripod.com/cafehome/serbdom-eng.htm)

 

bs:Stjepan II Kotromanić

Original text can be found on the link bellow.

http://www.indopedia.org/Stephen_Kotromanic.html 



 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

HISTORIJA BOSANSKIH NARODA "srba" "hrvata" i BOSNJAKA te proces asimilacije Bosnjaka katolika i pravoslavaca

 http://www.geocities.com/famous_bosniaks/index.html (Tekst je malo modifikovan sa moje strane)

U čuvenom razgovoru sa Turskim beglerbegom, kada mu je Turski beglerbeg rekao: “Nema više Bosne, a neće biti ni Bošnjaka, Huseine… Gineš za državu koja nikad nije postojala niti će.” Husein Kapetan Gradaščević mu je odgovorio sljedećim riječima: “Ima Bosne, beglerbeže i Bošnjaka u njoj! Bili su prije vas i ako Bog da, biti će i poslije vas!” UVOD: Sve do dolaska Osmanlija, stanovnici Bosne bez obzira na vjersku pripadnost (heretičku, katoličku, pravoslavnu) nazivali su sebe Bošnjanima. Ovaj stari oblik imena našeg naroda, vremenom se, kao i jezik, mijenja u moderni oblik Bošnjaci, baš kao i oblici imena susjednih naroda - Srblji (Srbi), Horvati (Hrvati), Albanezi (Albanci) itd. Od sredine XIX. stoljeća, zbog slabljenja turske prevlasti i brzog osamostaljivanja Srbije i Crne Gore i jačanja autonomije Hrvatske (unutar Austro-Ugarske), Bošnjaci-pravoslavci, sve češće se izjašnjavaju kao Srbi, a Bošnjaci-katolici kao Hrvati. Bošnjaci-muslimani ostaju pri svom imenu, koristeći naziv Bošnjak… (*Isto procitaj: Kako se postajalo Srbinom u Srbiji?) BOŠNJACI i BOŠNJAŠTVO:  Nacionalni identitet Bosanskih Srba, odnosno Bosanskih Hrvata se formira veoma kasno, tek polovinom 19 stoljeća, kada se Bošnjaci pravoslavne, odnosno, katoličke vjeroispovijesti, a pod znatnim lobiranjem srbijanskih i hrvatskih političkih misionara, odrođuju od bošnjačkog nacionalnog korpusa i na temelju zajedničke vjeroispovijesti počinju nacionalno identifikovati sa susjednim pravoslavnim srbima, odnosno katoličkim hrvatima. Čitav ovaj fenomen, u svojoj čuvenoj pjesmi “Pjesma Bošnjaku,” koju je objavio list Bošnjak 2. VII. 1891. godine, opisao je i Safvet-beg Bašagić riječima:
Znas Bošnjače, nije davno bilo, / Sveg’ mi sv’jeta nema petnaest ljeta, / Kad u našoj Bosni ponositoj, / I junačkoj zemlji Hercegovoj, / Od Trebinja do Brodskijeh vrate, / Nije bilo Srba ni Hrvata. / A danas se kroz svoje hire, / Oba stranca ko u svome šire. […] Oba su nas gosta saletila, Da nam otmu najsvetije blago, Naše ime ponosno i drago.
Bošnjački katolik Fra. Ivan Frano Jukić (1818-1857), koji je koristio pseudonim Slavoljub Bošnjak, je u svom proglasu 1848. godine zapisao:
“Mi Bošnjaci njekad slavni narod sad jedva da smo živi nas samo kao očenutu glavu od stabla slavjanskog gledaju priatelji naukah i žale nas…. Vrime je da se i probudimo od dugovične nemarnosti; dajte pehar, te carpite iz studenca pomnje mudrost, i nauk; nastojte da najpred naša serca očistimo od predsudah, fatajmo za knjige i časopise, vidimo što su drugi uradili, te i mi ista sredstva poprimimo, da naš narod prosti iz tminah neznanstva na svitlost isitne izvedmo.”

Srbin i Hrvat je u Bosni znacio iskjucivo vjerski pojam kao sto se mozemo uvjeriti na sljedecem primjeru:


Giljferding A., u njegovoj knjizi "Putovanje po Hercegovini, Bosni i Staroj Srbiji", prijevod, Sarajevo 1972. (Pravo prezime je Hilferding, ali on je bio ruski konzul u Sarajevu, i djelo je objavio na ruskom, 1859) prikazuje nam zanimljivo viđenje jednog bosanskog bega:

 Cak i sredinom 19. vijeka ruski diplomata Aleksandar Giljferding je prilikom obilaska Bosne primijetio da bosanski Srbi ne razlikuju vjersku od nacionalne pripadnosti, jer i njega, Giljferdinga, smatraju Srbinom samo zato što je pravoslavac

‘Bosna i Hercegovina i ustavne uredbe’ 1911. godine piše austro-ugarski diplomat A. Sheck:

“Kada se jednom srpskom /pravoslavnom/ seljaku postavi pitanje šta je, on samosvjesno odgovcara: ‘Srbin, gospodine’, a kad se to isto pitanje postavi katoličkom seljaku, on stidljivo odgovara da je katolik. Ni od jednog bosanskog seljaka nisam čuo da je Hrvat. Nasuprot tome, bosanski intelektualci, zanatlije, trgovci katoličke vjere priznaju se bez izuzetka Hrvatima”

To pokazuje da širenje hrvatske nacionalne ideje još 1911. nije uzelo maha kod Bosnjackih katolika na selu.

Fratar Jukic banjalucanin u svom “Kolu” veli da Bosnjaci ne znadu za ime Hrvatsko.

Katolicki svecenik Matija Katancic

“Uvjericeš se najzad da se hrvatsko ime u Dalmaciji, Bosni i Srbiji narocito propagiralo, ali se ilirski narodi u ovom predjelu nikada nijesu tim imenom nazivali“.

Bošnjak katolicke vjeroispovijesti Ivan Frano Jukiæ ce zabilježiti da u Bosni, u 19. stoljecu, “katolici ne znaju šta znaci rijec Hrvat, a kamoli da se oni osjecaju pripadnicima hrvatske nacije”.

ALBANSKI APOSTOLSKI VIZITATOR PETER MASARECHI 1624 GODINE KAZE SLJEDECE

TO JE STANOVNISTVO U ETNICKOM JEZICKOM I POLITICKOM SMISLU OPCENITO U OSMANLIJSKOM CARSTVU SMATRANO BOSNJACIMA ODNOSNO BOSNJACKIM NARODOM.


MOZE LI SE JASNIJE IZJASNITI? MISLIM DA NE MOZE.

 Mustafa Imamovic:Historija Bosnjaka str.180

NOVOSADSKA ''MATICA SRPSKA'' GOD. 1825.  NIJE ZNALA DA POSTOJE SRBI U BOSNI I CRNOJ GORI!

Link

Milovan Đilaš svjedoči o bošnjacima iz Sandžačkog kraja, za vrijeme bivše Jugoslavije:
Taj naziv… je tradicionalan vec od srednjeg vijeka: muslimani koje sam ja poznavo u Bijelom Polju i družio se sa njima uvijek su govorili da su Bošnjaci. U mojoj porodici je bio sluga musliman, Bešir Zulević iz okoline Rožaja. Bio je nepismen – ja sam ga naucio pismenosti – što nije bilo teško, jer je bio veoma bistar…uvijek je govorio da je Bošnjak. A i Vuk Karadžic je upotrebljavao taj termin – Bošnjaci. (Milovan Ðilaš i Nadežda Gaco: Bošnjak Adil Zulfikarpašic; isto vidi: Polje, br. 36)
Prof. Dr. Darko Tanasković, najpriznatiji jugoslovenski orijentalist, o bošnjaštvu kao nazivu kojim se označava etnopolitička koncepcija, kaže da je suština u stavu da u staroj istorijskoj zemlji Bosni, starijoj i od Srbije i od Hrvatske, kao njeno autohtono stanovništvo, s neprekinutim etničkim, kulturnim, psihičkim, pa i državotvornim kontinuitetom od ranog srednjeg vijeka do danas, žive Bošnjaci i da je to jedino njima odgovarajuće narodno i nacionalno ime.(Polje, br. 36). U potrazi za receptom posrbljavanja Bošnjaka, osvrnimo se na Načertanije (1844), Ilije Garašanina. U svom programu Načertanije on narod Bosne naziva bošnjacima - bez obzira na vjersku pripadnost - i jasno ih razlikuje od Srba u Srbiji:::Ako Bošnjaci ne bi ovo primili, to bi otuda kao sigurno sledovalo raskomadanje Srba na provincijalna mala knjaževstva… Nadalje, govori o procesu preobražavanja srpstva u Bosni, koje počinje polovinom 19 stoljeća podudarajući se sa periodom u kojem su pisane Načertanije, i sjedinjenju istih sa Srbijom: “...ako bi se pre ovog opšteg sojedinjenja Srbstva što osobito u Bosni preobražavati počelo….K ovome treba dakle učiniti da se Bošnjaci i ostali Slaveni obrate… Nadalje, predlaže da se: nekoliko mladih Bošnjaka u srpsku službu državnu prima da bi se ovi…obučavali i za takove činovnike pripravljali koji bi ono što su u Srbiji naučili posle u svom otečestvu u djelo privesti mogli. Da bi plan Velike Srbije tekao bez većih problema, Garašanin smatra da bi se trebala pisati i opšta historija Bosne gdje se “ne bi smela izostaviti slava i imena nekih muhamedanskoj veri prešavsi Bošnjaka i nadalje napominje da bi ova historija trebala da bude oprezno pisana i to isključivou duhu narodnog jedinstva Srba i Bošnjaka” i od stranečoveka vrslo sposobnog i duboko pronicavajućeg. Meta njegovog programa bili su i katolički Bošnjaci:Na istočnog veroispovedanija Bošnjake veći upliv imati neće biti za Srbiju težak zadatak. Više predostrožnosti i vnimanija na protiv toga iziskuje to, da se katolički Bošnjaci zadobijedu. Na čelu ovih stoje franjevački fratri. Bosna nikada nije bila ni hrvatska, ni srpska - ona je od pamtivjeka, pa sve do polovine 19 stoljeća, bila zemlja Bošnjaka različitih vjera, zemlja Bosanaca. Jedan od najcjenjenijih historičara u svijetu, po pitanju historije svih južnoslavenskih zemalja, Dr. Nada Klaić u svome djelu “SREDNJOVJEKOVNA BOSNA - POLITIČKI POLOŽAJ BOSANSKIH VLADARA DO TVRTKOVE KRUNIDBE” (Zagreb, 1989.), naučno je ustvrdila da Bosna nikada nije bila ni hrvatska ni srpska. Zemlja Bosna je po Dr. Nadi Klaić potpuno posebna i po narodu i po kulturi i po svojemu postanku. Dr. Nada Klaić dolazi do sljedećih konstatacija: ….No, ove nevješte projekcije o srpstvu Bosne vrijede isto koliko Šišićevo dokazivanje o hrvatsvu Bosne. Međutim nekritički izvještaj Konstantina Porfirogeneta o Sklavinijama moze poslužiti kao podloga za zaključke samo onom historičaru kome nije odveć stalo do historijske istine.

Ugledni Srpski historicar Relja Novakovic kaze:




Cini nam se da je Zeta kao i Bosna jos od samog pocetka bila osobena zemlja.

Zeta nikad nije postala Srbija.
Tako je Relja!!!

Dakle, ako neko misli dokazati hrvatstvo ili srpstvo Bosnjaka, mora se potruditi da nade sljedece dokaze.
Znaci:
- dokazi o naseljenju Hrvatskog odnosno Srpskog plemena na bosanske planine centralne Bosne
- dokazi o hrvatskom ili srpskom imenu koje je bilo barem dominantno u starim spisima
- arheoloska nalazista maksuz Hrvata odnosno Srba takodjer
- i najvaznije - objasniti proces odrodjavanja od hrvatskog imena u bosnajcko. Kroz prizmu ondasnje svijesti.

. Kratki dodatak (29-08-2004): Zanimljivo je navesti i primjer historiografske manipulacije podacima. Primjer: Povelja Bana Ninoslava Dubrovčanima i Povelja Stjepana II Kotromanića Dubrovčanima iz 1333. Zvuče kao autenticne povelje? ALI NISU! Obadvije tkz. povelje su zapravo prepiske od strane srpskih pisara!


Nada Klaic-Bosna je Bosanska (Srednjovjekovna Bosna)